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Brian · Messages: 297 Location: Nestled in lovely SoCal...

I don't really want to make light of the pain that people go through. On the contrary, I think of it as part of the natural ebb & flow of life. But there is a place for everything. Other parts of chat chat chat are for possibility & imagination & outright, luscious creativity. When we're stuck, dragging ourselves to a creative revaluation of our situation seems like the last thing imaginable. (It's, of course, the only way out, but try that on some one who's in the throes of it. I just came out of three weeks of the worst flu I've ever had & towards the end, it was almost comical how quickly people scurried out of my way so they didn't have to hear another endless litany of everything that was wrong. I got it finally, so my family has slowly returned from their hiding places...)

Whining is fine. It can even be therapeutic. But it's not a creative act & there is no way you'll ever convince me that it is. That doesn't mean it shouldn't have its place. That place is here, in In The Dark. Feel free to let it rip & come back & join us whenever you're ready. We'll be looking forward to it..

Anonymous · 19/01/2006 15:05:38 Subject: Re: Welcome to the dark place under the stairs..

Brian,

I have to admit I am kinda disappointed by this. Both the creation and the post to open this forum. I understand that you want a different place for dark thoughts however saying Poor Pitiful Me is condescending and hurtful. I have been an avid fan and admirer and subscriber to your work for so long that you could really never do wrong in my eyes until this. I am thinking maybe i am misinterpreting your tone so I wanted to post to give you a chance to prove that I am right , that i am misinterpreting. Or maybe i am just hurt because you are trying to separate the pain from the beauty when so often they are intertwined. I don't think of it as whining and that to me is a poor choice of words. I don't see these things as whining, rather expressing the pain that some of us can't express anywhere else. Maybe I am also hurt by this because most of my posts have been about pain but for some of us pain is very much an integral part of everyday life and for you to say that i am whining or pitying myself is deeply wounding. And the ironic thing is that people who post about pain and dark thoughts such as myself have found such a circle of warm people who seem to care more than the people in our immediate lives. why then would you separate this and in way single out the people in pain? Not your style, I didn't think.

I wrote because I thought of all people to look at what i am saying with an open mind it would be you. Please prove me right.

veetfeet

veetfeet · Messages: 49

that was me

"Peace. it does not mean to be in a place where there is no noise, trouble or hard work, it means to be in the midst of those things and still be calm in your heart."

Anonymous · 21/01/2006 19:12:01 Subject: Re: Welcome to the dark place under the stairs..

Veetfeet, I apologize for sticking my 2 cents in here before Brian has had a chance to answer, but I am compelled. I have a theory about this and just want you to hear me out. Usually when people whine (and to me whining is a perfectly acceptable way to rid yourself of the daily detritus), it isn't because they are in pain. Whining stems from being miffed (p.o.'d). Your boss makes you mad, your husband was thoughtless, your wife hurt your feelings. That kind of thing. In my opinion, though, true pain is wordless. When you are truly wounded, the cut is so deep, it takes a while for it to get to the surface. Eventually, you may cry, and you may even eventually talk about it, but not right away. It is a form of shock and there are no words to express it, in my experience. On the other hand, whining comes out almost as quickly as the hurt has been done, because the cut isn't very deep. It hasn't really hit you where you live. I think everyone should whine when they feel like it and I also think that it is fine to feel sorry for oneself once in a while, so long as we dont adopt it as a lifestyle. In my way of thinking, it would waste too much of our precious time. (And who would want to be tied to the Whining Post, so to speak.) But now and then, I think it's good for you, and if there are people you love around you, they should indulge you once in a while when you just can't bear up any longer without saying something. I am not trying to suggest you aren't dealing with real pain nor am I making light of your situation, but just wanted to offer a different perspective to see if it might help.

rich · Messages: 602 Location: Longmont, CO

Dear Brian,

I think you have found a perfect solution in Dark Places.

With all best wishes,

rich

Brian · Messages: 297 Location: Nestled in lovely SoCal...

Dear veetfeet,

It's an honest question, so I'll attempt an honest answer...

It comes down to this, here in chat chat chat. We get thousands of emails & letters here at StoryPeople about what the stories mean to people. After ten or so years, I'd say that, while I don't have a perfect view of the space we hold open, I have a pretty comprehensive view. We have always held open the idea that we, all of us, are not powerless, that we have the ability, no, more than the ability, the drive to create a future that works for everyone. (The emphasis I would point out here is on the word 'create'. It is an active creation of how you want the world to be, not only for you, but for all the people who are here now & for all those who will come after.) It's an uncommon thing & worth protecting.

I do regret the language I used in the opening post. Not because it's untrue, but because I forgot that the shorthand that works in our family doesn't carry the same meanings to everyone else. Both 'whining' & 'poor pitiful me' have instantly recognizable meanings in my family. 'Whining' is complaining about something you've not yet recognized that you'll be going through anyway. It's an instant warning flag that you've forgotten who is responsible for how you respond. It's also a statement that you're having a personal experience that everyone else around you may choose to ignore. It doesn't mean we care any less, but we've got things other than your personal happiness we're focusing on. 'Poor pitiful me' says that you & I both see that it's something that you need to go through, however long that takes, but that it's not your permanent state of being. (This is a huge distinction to make. Even if your pain, or sadness, or darkness feels like it will last forever, it won't. Unless you want that for yourself. Our true home is in creating & choosing to live, despite what the external circumstances may be proposing as an alternative..)

So, I don't make light of the pain you're undergoing, but as one of the guardians of this community, I won't make it the focus. I don't wish to trivialize any experience, but there are areas that I bring into sharper focus & equally, areas where I remove focus. It is the way I hold open the space. We have remarkable people here, many who have experienced trauma that is almost beyond words. It is what makes this place such a wellspring of caring & compassion. But those same remarkable people have chosen, despite the seeming evidence of their lives, to become more than their pain & suffering. They choose every day to get up & create the world new.

If that's not where you are at, I understand. It's why I say, we'll be waiting for your return. I'm really not sending you off to a dark corner for you to work it out. I'm recognizing that, for whatever reasons, you are in a dark corner & when you're ready, you'll return with your wisdom as lessons for us all. There will still be people there to offer their compassion & wisdom & experience. This is the reason I've created a forum. It's a place where you can go to heal. But it also allows me to hold open a place where that is an aspect, but not the entire reason, for this community of fellow travelers.

Many years ago, a friend told me that if she had to wait until her wounds had healed she would never do anything. The key, she said, was to have your wounds & go on despite them. I am not denying your wounds, or your pain. I am asking you if this is, at heart, who you want to be. You may not like it (not everybody does..), but it is one of the things you can count on from me. That is the intent behind what I do, both here in chat chat chat & in so many of my stories. I hope that makes sense to you...

with love, Brian

Anonymous · 03/02/2006 13:37:59 Subject: Re: Welcome to the dark place under the stairs..

I think i definitely misinterpreted. I have an old habit of becoming defensive without actually giving someone a chance to explain and then getting mad because i didn't get the answer i wanted. Actually i am in a far better place today than i have ever been in my life. Like your friend, if i had waited til my wounds had healed i would be stuck at 12 yrs. old in a 24 yr. old body. I finally now can appreciate my own strength but i am still growing, a bit uncomfortably i might add. So i sometimes still go back to that dark place because for so long it was all i ever knew. So being happy is something i am not used to and i am trying to practice which sounds strange and is surprisingly hard. (without a doubt-well worth it

)

I appreciate your response and i am sorry it took me so long to get back however i don't own a computer so the only place i can log on is work. SO i would like to respond at greater length but again i am at work so i gotta run. Thanks again!!

veetfeet · Messages: 49

oh ok

"Peace. it does not mean to be in a place where there is no noise, trouble or hard work, it means to be in the midst of those things and still be calm in your heart."

Kindred · Messages: 913 Location: A little Here.... a little There~

Brian... you never cease to inspire me with the being- and sharing of your connectedness+:. Many Thanks.~* + } )

Below, as a circuitous response to the postings here, under the stairs, (my grandma had those old, backless stairs... whenever she'd ask you to go down in the basement ((with the concrete floor)) and get something,

you'd just dread walking down those stairs, sure someone was gonna grab your ankle... creepy!)
Okay.. I digress...

Kinda like a different take on Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs (Love that thing!), I have come to know this list.. the Emotional Guidance Scale and it explained a lot to me. Here it is, if you like:

Emotional Guidance Scale
1. Joy / Knowledge / Empowerment / Freedom / Love / Appreciation
2. Passion
3. Enthusiasm / Eagerness / Happiness
4. Positive Expectation / Belief
5. Optimism
6. Hopefulness
7. Contentment
8. Boredom
9. Pessimism
10. Frustration / Irritation / Impatience
11. "Overwhelment"
12. Disappointment
13. Doubt
14. Worry
15. Blame
16. Discouragement
17. Anger
18. Revenge
19. Hatred / Rage
20. Jealousy
21. Insecurity / Guilt / Unworthiness
22. Fear / Grief / Depression / Despair / Powerlessness

I am afraid the space will cut me off, so I'll continue my post v down there... : )

...A Glorious Un-Work in Progress.~*

Kindred · Messages: 913 Location: A little Here.... a little There~

Okay, so the reason I took the time & space to write all that schtuff was ...that, if you (someone, whatever) are in a place of, say, Depression, not only are you simply unable to jump to Joy and total Appreciation, ...Hopefulness seems completely out of reason and ridiculous. You would essentially be right. The energies are too far from each other. (We're talking State of Being, not fleeting emotions to temporarily grab for.)
So, if some Pollyanna of sorts, comes along all in their Passion-For-Life state, telling you it's not so bad, look at the bright side!!!! You want to knock their teeth out. (Which, actually, is a positive reaction as it got you to climb up to Rage for a bit of relief from Depression.) You are better off being away from those that far away from your emotional set-point, as you really won't be getting along or seeing eye-to-eye, anyway.
Your best bet as a service to yourself is to Acknowledge where you are, validate what you are feeling as real, but recognize that you can do something about it. (And also to realize that there are no knights in shining armor out there to rescue you...that the Knight is Yourself. That one Really helped me grow.)...Sure, you can attract others that are willing to play the part for you to fulfill something in them, but it's neither healthy nor longlasting.
You can, however, go inside yourself and reach for the best-feeling emotion you have access to. (the chart helps.)
One more part, below....

...A Glorious Un-Work in Progress.~*

Kindred · Messages: 913 Location: A little Here.... a little There~

...Last part...

Conversely, those who are energetically far from you on the scale can do one of three things: They can dip their vibration down to yours to commiserate and in so doing, remember that energy and get kinda stuck there with you in their remembering (misery loves company is energetically correct), .....they can stay their course and give you -and them- a respectful wide-berth, .....or they can essentially provide a branch at the edge of your hole (i.e., like the explanation of this scale... and RUN!) so that when you are ready to climb up a bit, you will have something to reach for. (again, for the sake of codependency, it is something to reach for, not someone. Yes, my ex is a psychologist how could you tell.)

Either way, the sheer difference and vastness of the gap in energies is incompatible. Thus, verrrrry irritating to let's face it, both parties, to a degree. That is why you verbally pulled Brian's hair when, for him, he was just stating (fill in the blank) rationally and with compassion. You didn't hear that; you couldn't. But when you were able to climb to a better-feeling place, you saw it from the place you were then at, and it looked -and felt- different.
But with a climbing-up to the B-F-P, comes wisdom from experience, and compassion to those who are a little farther down than you. That is why it is always better to keep a distance and shout down directions *when asked* , as opposed to climbing down into the hole to be with them. : D

So.... that is my unsolicited $1.75....

...A Glorious Un-Work in Progress.~*

Anonymous · 25/03/2006 10:02:08 Subject: Re: Welcome to the dark place under the stairs..

Hi Brian, I love your site and your creations, books, etc and am not a "chatter" by nature...this being the first posting I have ever done. But thanks for the welcome to the dark place under the stairs. Sometimes I like being there alone and still and just regrouping. And whining isn't fine. It isn't bad either. It just is...human. Everyone does it...everyone hears it and it is part of being connected with other humans...it just is...like being creative is...it comes more naturally to some so others of us are able to enjoy it. Thanks for that.

Anonymous · 06/04/2006 02:28:23 Subject: Re: Welcome to the dark place under the stairs..

I'm tired. Such knowledgeable folks inflicting learned insights can make ones eyes cross.

I prefer poetry.

Seeing the dark stars of the morning,
greet the warm glow of each day,
heralds the re-birth
of feelings.
Go touch it.

Anonymous · 22/08/2006 22:10:48 Subject: Re: Welcome to the dark place under the stairs..

not everyone has someone to talk to you and what may be interpreted as whining to one is anothers very real pain. I am in the midst of a heartbreaking reality that I am sure when compared could seem like whining but everyone's pain is real and they need a place to get it out of them and into the world. Don't deny anyone that

Kindred · Messages: 913 Location: A little Here.... a little There~

I would, personally, no sooner deny another's expression of pain than my own; Each and every one of us has the freedom to do it.. and should-- it's too unhealthy to keep things bottled up inside.

But it is equally unproductive to expect others to form a ring around the "expressing" party and wring hands, lamenting on how bad it is for them. That's not helpful.
And in the Energetic world, Sympathy is actually adding to the greiving person's situation; not assisting it in the least.
Compassion is a much better gift to extend.
That's why the two need space between.
One hears whining, while the other hears flippancy.
Neither one, from their vantage point, would be far from wrong.
Still doesn't make it good-or growthful- for either party.

To quote the catchy little ditty by Offspring
"You gotta keep 'em Separated."

...A Glorious Un-Work in Progress.~*